Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Gothmog as a Human (was Re: Amazingly non-movie-related post: Gothmog II) References: <89g13uci0u5hndshidhk03tpfha2o4euf8@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: <<>> (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 93 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1010680395 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:33:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:33:15 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: fnj%7-12775-y4-2672@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 23068637 e8ca8d00 e6bc20ce f2bd6bc7 a7eee8b0 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:33:15 GMT [Sorry for the late reply; I've just gotten back to this as I've caught up with the backlog that formed while I was out of town.] Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <<>> in article : > "Jon Osborn" <<>> wrote: > > Like all "Gothmog II is no Nazgul" naysayers, you insist on > > something graven in stone to sway you. > No, actually... I'm in the Gothmog was a Nazgul camp. Always have > been; I, on the other hand, sit squarely in the "Gothmog was a human" camp. As I recently said in another thread, I don't think there's any truly convincing argument one way or another on this question. I doubt that the question will ever be resolved, but it's still interesting to discuss. :) My reason for thinking that Gothmog was likely to have been human is based largely on the Mouth of Sauron, who was also called the "Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur". One of the main arguments supporting the claim that Gothmog was a Nazgul applies just as strongly to the Mouth: if the Lieutenant of Morgul was such a powerful, responsible person that he must have been a Nazgul, then the Lieutenant of Barad-dur should have been an even more powerful Nazgul. Nonetheless, the Mouth of Sauron was explicitly known to be human. As the Mouth is the only "Lieutenant of [Major Evil Fortress]" whose race we know for certain, it seems quite reasonable to me to use that precedent to guide our thoughts on other Lieutenants whose race we don't know as well. One counter-argument to this point is that we know that there were no Nazgul "stationed" at Barad-dur, but there were six besides the Witch King at Minas Morgul. However, this doesn't really prove anything: those assignments were made by Sauron, and if he believed that "Lieutenants of [Major Evil Fortress]es" should be powerful Nazgul, he would have kept one or two of them with him at Barad-dur. It's not as if the Nazgul weren't available for the post if he wanted them! To the argument that the Nazgul might not be expected to take orders from anyone less than another Nazgul, there are two responses. One goes back to the Mouth of Sauron: when the Nazgul visited Barad-dur, did they take orders from the Mouth? If so, this argument that Gothmog was a Nazgul goes up in smoke. If not, that means that they were able to "go over his head" straight to Sauron... but then they could do exactly the same thing in Minas Morgul and report directly to the Witch King. The latter is actually my idea of the "command structure" of Minas Morgul: Witch King ______________|______________ | | Six other Nazgul Gothmog | (other forces at Minas Morgul) I suspect that the other Nazgul were a sort of "special operations" unit based out of Minas Morgul rather than an essential part of its chain of command, just as Khamul had another Nazgul with him at Dol Guldur as a "messenger" rather than as a second in command. After all, it would be bad for organization if the top seven members of the chain of command spent most of the War wheeling about and screeching above Minas Tirith rather than commanding the troops. It seems quite reasonable to have a sub-commander who was always there, whether the Nazgul were off on special missions or not. For example, when the Nazgul hunted Frodo in the Shire, _someone_ must have held the position that I've assigned to Gothmog in the table above, and that someone must not have been a Nazgul. Given that there is a reference in the books to a "Lieutenant of Morgul" who took command of some or all of the troops when the Witch King wasn't there, the person in the "Gothmog" position in that table up there seems like a very obvious choice... and that's the choice I've made. I also find it significant that when Frodo sees the Witch King lead his army forth from Minas Morgul, no other Nazgul are mentioned as being present. Not only are they not mentioned as being there, but there is some indirect evidence that they were absent. Given that the Witch King sensed the Ring's presence in the valley, it seems entirely likely that any other Nazgul in the host would have sensed it as well. At the very least, I would expect that the Witch King would have consulted with them about such a feeling (and perhaps taken more serious action if his feeling had been confirmed by someone else). In the book, he consults with no one, and marches away. It seems clear to me that Gothmog was also in that host (he was there when they were fighting at Minas Tirith, anyway, and if the Witch King made a point of marching with his troops I don't see why his Lieutenant wouldn't do the same). Anyway, that's my argument. It isn't convincing, clearly, but I think it's at least as strong as the claims in favor of Gothmog being a Nazgul. Steuard Jensen