Article 14055 of rec.arts.books.tolkien: From: <<>> (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Final note on eagles into Mordor Date: 13 Nov 1994 23:06:41 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania, Linguistics Department Lines: 111 Message-ID: <3a6661$ibf@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <3a0k8h$i3e@pdq.coe.montana.edu> <3a2trb$j9o@netnews.upenn.edu> <3a4ok8$rom@jaws.cs.hmc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu In one of the most intelligently formulated responses I've ever seen on this topic, <3a4ok8$rom@jaws.cs.hmc.edu>, Steuard Jensen wrote: >This thread has probably gone on far longer than it should have, Oh, not at all. I've never understood why people want these threads to come to a quick, decisive answer; there's lots to talk over. IMHO it's what this group is here for. >but I have >to add a final comment in response to some ideas that have been posted >recently. There have been many posts attempting to provide explanations >consistent with the story for the fact that nobody seems to have considered >the eagles as they discussed the fate of the ring. Several people have >commented that many of these explanations seem forced and may be stretching >the background a bit much. While I agree that many of these ideas are a bit >far fetched, I think that those who are trying to come up with textual >solutions are on the right track. > >The way I see it, Middle-Earth is a sub-created world as described by >Tolkien in "On Fairy Stories," a world that has in some sense its own life >and existence. To write off ambiguities in that world as Tolkien's mistakes >denies the very nature of such a world, and robs it of much of its magic. >While the "true" explanation for not using the eagles may indeed be Tolkien's >failure to consider the ide, as readers and interpreters of his work we >must search for an explanation there and there alone. A rational >justification for this might be that as Tolkien, the creator of this >particular world, did not see the eagles with a major role, there must have >been a reason for it. I have to say that this is brilliant, and I have to agree that it is true to the way Tolkien approached this kind of issue. The one shortcoming is that we are not co-creators of Middle-Earth of Tolkien and don't have the _authority_ to add to the story; thus the poster a while back who suggested that Sauron might throw fireballs at the eagles was in violation of something. But if Tolkien were here taking part in this conversation, I'd have to say that he would agree with the essence of what you are saying. I guess I can plead on these grounds: okay, we agree to stick to the postulates of this sub-created world, and agree not to invoke Tolkien's oversight as an explanation. We assume that there _is_ a reason for everything and that it's up to us to find it. Well, even within those grounds, we can still talk about how things might have been different within the story. Tolkien does so himself; think about the scene in Unfinished Tales when Gandalf says something along the lines of "The north would have been overrun, there would be no queen in Gondor, etc., if I hadn't happened to run into Thorin one particular evening." We can talk about how things might have been. So let's play "what-if". What if it _had_ occurred to the folks at Elrond's council to try using the eagles approach? Well, let me answer your story-internal explanation first: >Because of this, I'd like to bring up a comment (of Gandalf's, I think) that >almost addresses this issue. When the fellowship was discussing the best >route past the Misty Mountains, Boromir suggested traveling south through >the gap of Rohan. Gandalf immediately protested, replying that the Enemy >had ignored Boromir as he journeyed north, as he was a single man and going >away from Moror, but that an entire party going south would surely attract >attention. It seems likely to me that Sauron would have a similar reaction >to a flotilla of eagles heading straight towards the Mordor, even if they >stopped in Gondor. Even just one or two eagles outside of their normal >territory would probably arouse his suspicions. Not being a Maia, I can't >explain just how he would become aware of them, or stop them for that >matter, but Gandalf certainly had a great respect for the Enemy's powers of >vision (or spy network, at least). Also, even eagles couldn't get from >Rivendell to Mount Doom in a day: there would be plenty of time for the Dark >Lord to call out some force to investigate before the eagles got anywhere >near their goal. Good point, but there's two possibilities still open: 1. Assuming that the eagles fly the Ringbearer all the way from Rivendell to Mordor, they could still travel by night. As far as I know, only Sauron and the Nazgul can see in the dark. Remember that the Company travelled by night through Hollin so that Sauron's spies could not see them. 2. This also doesn't rule out the possibility of meeting the eagles just outside Mordor for the final hop. We know that there were eagles flying as close as Rohan at this time, and that their presence didn't lead Sauron to contemplate what might have happened if they flew over Mordor; Sauron didn't guess the plan of the Wise until the very end. So, if I were at Rivendell at the Council of Elrond, here's the plan I'd propose: Send messages to the eagles explaining this plan. Hoof it through Hollin as in the story, but since we already know to expect bad weather and no easy passage over the Misty Mountains, have the eagles travel by night and meet up with the Company at the foot of Cradhras. In the dark of night, fly the Company over the mountains to Lorien in one jump. Have the eagles fly away before dawn so that the spies of Mordor have no way of knowing what has happened. Take boats down the Anduin, and travel on foot throug the Brown Lands in the unpopulated area north of Mordor until about halfway past Mordor. Approach the mountains at an unpopulated spot. Have the eagles assemble secretly and fly over from Rohan at night to meet up with the Company at a pre-arranged time and place. At daybreak, when the Nazgul can't see, fly over the moutains into Mordor. Even if there are any orcs around, they will have to get the word to the sun-blinded Nazgul or to Sauron before any action can be taken, since the eagles can fly above the range of an arrow shot. Race to Mt. Doom. On the off chance that we are noticed and Sauron does send the Nazgul after us, have some of the eagles fight off the Nazgul as the rest fly on to Mt. Doom. Drop the Ringbearer at the door to the tunnel, have him run in and pop in the Ring, and then fly back out as the earth convulses. \/ __ __ _\_ --Kurisuto (kurisuto -aatt- unagi.cis.upenn -daht- edu) --- | | \ / _| ,| ,| ----- For a free copy of the Bill of Rights, finger _| ,| ,| [_] this account. | | | [_]