Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if Balrogs had wings?? References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: <<>> (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 198 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 06:56:42 GMT Quoth "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <<>> in article : > Steuard Jensen schreef: > > Quoth "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <<>>: > > > Steuard Jensen schreef: > > > > there is certainly considerable disagreement about whether it > > > > always had a wing-like shape. > > > Is there a point in the story where the shadow turns into > > > another shape[?] > > The most significant point that I would raise is that the Balrog's > > "man-shaped" body seems to be repeatedly described as being _inside_ > > the "shadow", not merely attached to it: > > > > "it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form" > > > > "From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming." > > ...wings don't normally engulf the winged creature... > That doesn't mean in any way that the Balrog could change shape; it > would only mean that the shadows (and the wings) were part of its > body. I don't quite follow you there, which probably means that I wasn't clear in describing the mental image that those phrases have always painted for me. Let's see if I can do a little ASCII art and draw them instead. :) In fact, why don't I illustrate the crucial "shadow" comments in two columns: one for my mental image, and one for my understanding of what you are advocating. I'm basing that second column on the part of your earlier post (discussed at length in my previous message and possibly further below), where you said: > > > The wings don't carry flames or burn themselves, so they look > > > like shadows. So Tolkien came to the description: because there > > > are wing-like shadows, it is suspected that there are true, > > > tangible wings. And this suspicion is confirmed when the Balrog > > > spreads its wings. You later clarified some aspects of the word "shadow", showing how it can describe someone who is backlit: > A similar effect can be seen in a person standing in front of a > large bonfire at night: such a person also seems to become a shadow. As a word of warning, what follows will only look sensible when viewed in a fixed-width font and with a column width of at least, er, 60 columns or so. If you don't have that, I suggest that you look up this post on Google Groups and go to the "Original Usenet Format" link at the right edge of the screen, just above the message body. Let me know if I've misunderstood anything! My Picture: My Understanding of Your Picture: ---------------------------------------------------------------- * "What is was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." _____ /.....\ /.......\ B |...B...| ... \......./ ..... \_____/ ....... Here, 'B' denotes the "dark form" and the '.'s denote the "shadow". In my column, the "shadow" is a cloudlike structure composed of some sort of "palpable darkness"; the Balrog's body is literally in the middle of it. In your column, my understanding is that the "shadow" is a literal shadow (presumably cast at this point by the "great fissure" filled with fire between the Balrog and the Fellowship); from the Fellowship's perspective, the Balrog's body would be seen in the middle of that dark background. * "It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it." _____ ^^^^^^^^^^???^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^/.....\^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^/.......\^^^^^^^ B |...B...| ... \......./ ..... \_____/ ....... Here, the '^'s denote the firey fissure. In my column, the cloud-shaped "shadow" surrounding the Balrog has "bent over" the fissure, dimming the light. In your column, to be honest, I have no idea why the light dimmed. (The Balrog hasn't spread its wings yet, and its main body hasn't crossed the fissure to where it could block the light anyway.) * "The Balrog reached the bridge. ...and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." _____ /.....\ /------.......------\ |..........B..........| B \------.......------/ \---------^---------/ \_____/ In my column, the cloud-like "shadow" about the Balrog has reached out in a shape similar to two vast wings. In your column, two "true, tangible wings" have reached out from the Balrog; because it is now backlit (against the firey fissure), the wings look like a dark "shadow". (In this view, the word "shadow" that was first used to describe a normal shadow on the wall is now being used to describe a tangible object that is backlit.) * "The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall" _______ /.......\ /--------.........--------\ |.............B.............| B \--------.........--------/ \------------^------------/ \_______/ In my column, the "shadow" (or "darkness") about the Balrog has grown larger: in particular, the "wings" of the shadowy "cloud" have now spread from wall to wall. In your column, the tangible wings have spread from wall to wall. (I guess with your reading, "the darkness grew" is taken as a natural consequence of "the fire in it seemed to die", although that doesn't seem to fit with the conjunction "but".) * "From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming." _____/_ / /..../..\ / /--------.....|...--------\ | |.............B.............| B \--------.........--------/ \------------^------------/ \_______/ Here, the extra '/' characters denote the sword. In my column, the sword has literally emerged "from out of the shadow." In your column, the sword has emerged from the darkness caused by the backlit wings blocking the light. (So either the word "shadow" is back to referring to a normal "blocked light" shadow again, or the phrase "out of the shadow" here just means that the sword has come forward relative to the indistinct backlit physical form of the Balrog... though a bright sword "like a stabbing tongue of fire" would have trouble getting lost in the darkness anyway.) * "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished." ============___============ =========================== ========___/...\___======== =========================== =======/.._..b.._..\======= ==========___b___========== ======|../ \___/ \..|====== ===== \--/ \--/ ===== \/ \/ Here, the '='s denote the chasm (or at least, the Balrog's edge of it), and the 'b' denotes the Balrog's distant falling body. In my column, the cloudlike "shadow" is being pulled down into the darkness along with the Balrog (here, I have imagined that in the process of happening, so that the remnants of the "wings" haven't finished "flowing" off the edge into the gulf yet). In your column, I'm honestly not sure which "shadow" the text would be referring to: as the Balrog and its wings fall into the dark chasm, there's no longer anything blocking the light (the "normal" shadow) nor is there really much backlighting (which made the wings look like a "shadow"). The best I could come up with was that the wings would be sort of between the Fellowship and the dim light of the Balrog, so I've drawn the wings in the process of "plunging down and vanishing". Whew. So, two questions. First, have I given a reasonably accurate representation of your mental image of what this passage is describing? And second, have my illustrations helped you to understand why I think my "amorphous cloudlike shadow-stuff" reading is consistent with the text? (I don't expect to have convinced you! I just want to know if you agree that it's one reasonable reading.) (Don't get me wrong, it would be _nice_ if this pictoral explanation of the "no wings" position made a convert of you! :) I feel that my column is a more natural and more precise match to the text than yours is at just about every step. But I understand that you might disagree.) Unfortunately, it's insanely late right now and I've spent far too long writing (and drawing) this message already, so I'll have to put off responding to your message point by point until later. Maybe this pictoral overview discussion will make that discussion go more smoothly when it does happen, however. :) Steuard Jensen